fixing stone - essay-creation

Epic 08-Mar-21 06:56 PM

first

Spica 08-Mar-21 07:04 PM

Ken109 08-Mar-21 07:21 PM

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qJbHRcUYuIfzYXpasMmnDenf_j9Z5n6x4_-AN9ZOtjQ/edit?usp=sharing

Down B

Spica 08-Mar-21 07:35 PM

We could start with the comparison

And transition into the explanation of the bug

NickGigabyte 08-Mar-21 07:36 PM

could we do that

Ken109 08-Mar-21 07:36 PM

then would they know why we're comparing

they would need to back track

Spica 08-Mar-21 07:36 PM

It would be like

NickGigabyte 08-Mar-21 07:36 PM

i think its best to talk about the problem and then compare other moves

that way the stage is set for what needs to be fixed

Ken109 08-Mar-21 07:37 PM

people don't usually start with an example before they try to explain something

that'd be confusing

Spica 09-Mar-21 06:48 PM

So

1

Who should write the script

We have our basic outline

We need to write an intro (edited)

Katerina 09-Mar-21 07:02 PM

Hello everybody welcome to the kirbydiscord youtube. Today we're going to talk about how stone is broken, but before that don't forget to hit that subscribe button and the bell to receive notifications on when our videos are uploaded so you dont miss any!! Now, let's get started:)

1

andrew4043 09-Mar-21 07:03 PM

heeeellllllllo once again audience; we're back, diggity diggin the broken move that is kirby stone

Katerina 09-Mar-21 07:04 PM

hit that subscribe and bell buttons or I will kill you

andrew4043 09-Mar-21 07:05 PM

how do you differentiate 3/x again

Katerina 09-Mar-21 07:06 PM

3ln|x|

No

That's

Thats integral

Ok

andrew4043 09-Mar-21 07:07 PM

o yeah

Katerina 09-Mar-21 07:07 PM

Its -3x^-2 (edited)

Thats derivative

-3*x^(-2)

andrew4043 09-Mar-21 07:07 PM

got it, forgot to multiply by -1

thank uuu

Katerina 09-Mar-21 07:07 PM

Im used to getting integrals with

Spica 09-Mar-21 07:07 PM

Katerina 09-Mar-21 07:07 PM

1/x because

Ken109 09-Mar-21 07:08 PM

we need to get internet celeberty

beefy smash doods

Katerina 09-Mar-21 07:08 PM

Differentials you have to multiply a integrating factor

And the integrating factor is usually

E^integral of p(x)

Spica 09-Mar-21 07:08 PM

Epic is a internet celebrity

I think

Epic 09-Mar-21 07:08 PM

no im not

andrew4043 09-Mar-21 07:08 PM

dang i've slacked off of differentials and integrals

wiith your voice you can be

Epic 09-Mar-21 07:09 PM

true

Katerina 09-Mar-21 07:09 PM

Differentials is an entire course after calc3 ):

1

Epic 09-Mar-21 07:09 PM

what i see a lot of documentaries/introductions do is that they don't directly tie you to it

Katerina 09-Mar-21 07:09 PM

Am currently suffering it

U gotta drag em on by telling them to subscribe

Epic 09-Mar-21 07:09 PM

maybe we can play out a scenario on one of the screens of someone trying to break shield with ult stone

and then stop

"why?"

Spica 09-Mar-21 07:10 PM

Why indeed

Katerina 09-Mar-21 07:10 PM

yea you're probably wondering how i got here

Epic 09-Mar-21 07:10 PM

lmfao

from there we can probably go into it from there

Spica 09-Mar-21 07:10 PM

Its what happened when u decided to not smash that like button

1

And retweet to ur friends

1

Epic 09-Mar-21 07:12 PM

nice

Katerina 09-Mar-21 07:13 PM

~~What if you play pmts montage as an intro~~

Spica 09-Mar-21 07:13 PM

Pmt’s montage as background footage

@Ken109 u have any proof that stone worked in the demo

As much as i trust ur word, most strangers wont

Ken109 09-Mar-21 07:15 PM

i don't

Spica 09-Mar-21 07:15 PM

Without good evidence, we cant include it

Katerina 09-Mar-21 07:16 PM

Are you guys using smash4 footage to show how it worked before

Ken109 09-Mar-21 07:16 PM

which is why i didn't include it

Spica 09-Mar-21 07:16 PM

Thats a rip

Ken109 09-Mar-21 07:16 PM

gotta use smash 4 footage

Spica 09-Mar-21 07:16 PM

Its a pretty major point in our advantage

Ken109 09-Mar-21 07:16 PM

not really

Spica 09-Mar-21 07:16 PM

If it worked in the demo but not in the final game, it would look a lot more like a bug

Unintentionally taken out

Ken109 09-Mar-21 07:17 PM

i could still say it

but also say that i have no proof to back it up

they did not allow video filming

Spica 09-Mar-21 07:17 PM

Maybe i can find some kirby demo stuff

Time to scour youtube

NickGigabyte 09-Mar-21 07:22 PM

I highly doubt there'll be video evidence without it either getting taken down or simply not existing But let us hope

Also I saw something about an intro It should probably be something quirky before getting into the main information to get the point across

Lots of videos have that

Spica 09-Mar-21 07:29 PM

Yo, dair looks pretty good in the demo

Spica

If it worked in the demo but not in the final game, it would look a lot more like a bug

Katerina 09-Mar-21 07:31 PM

4 or ult

Spica 09-Mar-21 07:33 PM

Ult

Katerina 09-Mar-21 07:35 PM

Is that still on eshop

Epic 09-Mar-21 07:36 PM

you probably can't get footage

but you can probably get confirmation from kirby players who have played the game to say it was a thing

andrew4043 09-Mar-21 07:36 PM

oh nonono the demo that nintendo put around stores like bestbuy before launch

Epic 09-Mar-21 07:36 PM

some that come to mind are mike and skg

andrew4043 09-Mar-21 07:36 PM

not an actual eshop demo

Ken109 09-Mar-21 07:37 PM

mike can confirm cause he was there

Epic 09-Mar-21 07:37 PM

then you can grab a screenshot

im saying skg is also an option because one, she's a nintendo brand ambassador

and two, she has a video of her thoughts playing kirby in the ultimate demo

Spica 09-Mar-21 07:38 PM

Bruhhh, either they’re not shielding or they’re not using stone

Epic 09-Mar-21 07:38 PM

with footage (not of stone break)

Ken109 09-Mar-21 07:38 PM

did stone hit shield

Epic 09-Mar-21 07:38 PM

i watched the whole thing, it doesn't

but if we're bringing this to nintendo, her word would probably mean a lot

Spica 09-Mar-21 07:39 PM

I FOUND IT

YESSSS (edited)

Epic 09-Mar-21 07:39 PM

huh?

andrew4043 09-Mar-21 07:39 PM

Spica 09-Mar-21 07:39 PM

https://youtu.be/WFoiD6FXGcI

TrueDNL

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Post e3 Event| Purple~H (Snake) vs DNL(K...

1

44 seconds in

Epic 09-Mar-21 07:40 PM

gg

Spica 09-Mar-21 07:40 PM

We did it boys

Epic 09-Mar-21 07:40 PM

g fucking g

Ken109 09-Mar-21 07:40 PM

SK 09-Mar-21 07:40 PM

Nice

Spica 09-Mar-21 07:41 PM

DNL is a g

SK 09-Mar-21 07:41 PM

For once I'm glad to see a kirby that just mashes specials

Ken109 09-Mar-21 07:41 PM

IT'S BEAUTIFUL

andrew4043 09-Mar-21 07:41 PM

i wish we had that in ultimate

:stepup:

Ken109 09-Mar-21 07:41 PM

Spica 09-Mar-21 07:42 PM

Pin that shit

Ken109 09-Mar-21 07:42 PM

audible yelling

Epic 09-Mar-21 07:44 PM

Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.

Ken109 09-Mar-21 07:55 PM

Pinned a message.

SK

For once I'm glad to see a kirby that just mashes specials

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 09-Mar-21 07:58 PM

AHEM

~~jeja~~

~~up b~~

also

did the both the aerial hitbox and grounded hitbox hit snake?

SK 09-Mar-21 07:58 PM

Yeah and I'm not glad to watch jeja mash specials

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 09-Mar-21 07:58 PM

in that clip

SK 09-Mar-21 07:58 PM

Yes, they hit his shield

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 09-Mar-21 07:58 PM

o-o

i thought that was removed

SK 09-Mar-21 07:59 PM

That's the demo footage

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 09-Mar-21 07:59 PM

demo?

Epic 09-Mar-21 07:59 PM

the e3 demo

SK 09-Mar-21 07:59 PM

Yeah

Epic 09-Mar-21 07:59 PM

released before the game

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 09-Mar-21 07:59 PM

oh

damn

Epic 09-Mar-21 07:59 PM

the reason we're looking at the demo is to back up the idea that this is a bug

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 09-Mar-21 07:59 PM

ahh

wait

Epic 09-Mar-21 07:59 PM

stone works the way we all know and hate it in the full game

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 09-Mar-21 08:00 PM

want me to get a downloadable clip?

gimme a sec

Ken109 09-Mar-21 08:00 PM

for once

i'm glad someone hit a shield with stone and it didn't break shield

just this once

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 09-Mar-21 08:00 PM

bum

Epic 09-Mar-21 08:01 PM

this is the first and only time i think you two will praise a kirby player for this type of play

lol

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 09-Mar-21 08:01 PM

lmao

Ken109 09-Mar-21 08:01 PM

never again

Spica 09-Mar-21 08:01 PM

He’s one of a kind

Ken109 09-Mar-21 08:01 PM

the goat

Spica 09-Mar-21 08:01 PM

We also have to thank the snake for shielding

Cause a lot of people decided to just take it

Ken109 09-Mar-21 08:01 PM

thanks snake

Epic 09-Mar-21 08:02 PM

thank you snake

Ken109 09-Mar-21 08:02 PM

btw

SK 09-Mar-21 08:02 PM

Domo arigatou, snake-sama

Ken109 09-Mar-21 08:03 PM

the original idea i had was that it would be in 2 languages

Spica 09-Mar-21 08:03 PM

We can ask the Japanese kirbycord when we finish the script

Ken109 09-Mar-21 08:03 PM

in english and japanese, so a wider range of people can watch

ye

Epic 09-Mar-21 08:04 PM

do you think we can nab a t.. wait a minute

mukyu?

i know they've been using translator to understand us but if we can find a way to explain to them the concept of what we're trying to do

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 09-Mar-21 08:05 PM

Epic 09-Mar-21 08:05 PM

they can take the rest from there with the japanese kirbycord

Spica 09-Mar-21 08:05 PM

Yeh i dm’d him months ago about this

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 09-Mar-21 08:05 PM

mukyu?

oh

Spica 09-Mar-21 08:05 PM

Yeh

Back when the talks about making a video first started

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 09-Mar-21 08:06 PM

but man, if it really does get patched

stone's bug

Ken109 09-Mar-21 08:06 PM

I already explained it to him

he knows about it

Epic 09-Mar-21 08:06 PM

recently?

Ken109 09-Mar-21 08:06 PM

NOPE

Epic 09-Mar-21 08:06 PM

nice

Ken109 09-Mar-21 08:06 PM

probably remembers our talk tho

and if not i can jog the memory

and

we have footage now

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ

but man, if it really does get patched

Epic 09-Mar-21 08:07 PM

if it gets patched ken will become orange again

Epic 10-Mar-21 06:28 AM

just saying @Ken109, you should probably pin the downb doc

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qJbHRcUYuIfzYXpasMmnDenf_j9Z5n6x4_-AN9ZOtjQ/edit?usp=sharing

Down B

Kirby Stone Fix (Intro) (Argument 1) What is stone What does stone do When is stone used (Argument 2) What is wrong with stone (Examples) Comparison - https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/818648316936978482/819027017759588362/Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate_Post_e3_Event__Purple_H_Snake_vs_DNLKirb...

Ken109 10-Mar-21 06:35 AM

go to sleep epic

1

Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.

Ken109 10-Mar-21 06:35 AM

Pinned a message.

Epic 10-Mar-21 06:35 AM

i just got up for school what

Ken109 10-Mar-21 06:35 AM

oh shit

i'm exposed

1

Epic 10-Mar-21 06:36 AM

the tables have turned go tf to bed

andrew4043 10-Mar-21 06:37 AM

lol

Ken109 10-Mar-21 06:37 AM

ok

1

Mai]{u💫 10-Mar-21 11:41 AM

I knew the second hit of stone wasn’t just some Mandela effect that I showed Ken in the demo. Glad there’s a clip now.

Spica 14-Mar-21 06:41 PM

Ok

I finished my sat

What have u guys done while i was busy?

Oh

Its the same

andrew4043 14-Mar-21 06:42 PM

yeah

Spica 14-Mar-21 06:42 PM

Welp

ill try working on it today

Ken109 14-Mar-21 06:43 PM

️

Spica 14-Mar-21 06:49 PM

What should be used as a hook?

Any suggestions?

Ken109 14-Mar-21 06:53 PM

when it comes to writing

in school that was my weakest subject

Spica 14-Mar-21 06:53 PM

What do people usually do when it comes to this

Ken109 14-Mar-21 06:54 PM

Spica 14-Mar-21 06:54 PM

Im not bad at writing but i almost failed my 9th grade english class cause of my essays

And because my teacher was a bitch who was too critical about essays

Ken109 14-Mar-21 06:54 PM

don't gotta write a whole essay

I don't think we even have to introduce ourselves formally or anything like that

Spica 14-Mar-21 06:54 PM

Nah, we need something

But what is it

Ken109 14-Mar-21 06:55 PM

this isn't a highschool project or anything

don't gotta walk up to the class and be like "hello my name is"

Spica 14-Mar-21 06:55 PM

Bruh, highschool teaches u effective structure for argumentative writing

If you’ve ever watched one of those video essays on youtube

Ken109 14-Mar-21 06:55 PM

idk what highschool you were in but mine taught me nothing of the sort

IBZ 14-Mar-21 06:56 PM

is this even a video essay

Spica 14-Mar-21 06:56 PM

They usually the same structure as a school essay

Its not

But we still need a hook

Ken109 14-Mar-21 06:56 PM

this is probably gonna be short af

the hook is getting straight to the point

IBZ 14-Mar-21 06:56 PM

what's a hook

andrew4043 14-Mar-21 06:56 PM

"kirby's stone doesn't function."

Spica 14-Mar-21 06:56 PM

Something that grab’s the audience’s attention

And convinces them to keep watching (edited)

Ken109 14-Mar-21 06:57 PM

i got something

we start not with words

andrew4043

"kirby's stone doesn't function."

IBZ 14-Mar-21 06:57 PM

oh well ye this works fine

Ken109 14-Mar-21 06:57 PM

but a clip of stone hitting a shield

Spica 14-Mar-21 06:57 PM

Actually

Ken109 14-Mar-21 06:57 PM

and it not doing shit for shield damage

Spica 14-Mar-21 06:57 PM

Andrew, u might be right (edited)

We start with

Stone doesnt work

And then we expand on that

Ken109

and it not doing shit for shield damage

IBZ 14-Mar-21 06:57 PM

and then compare it to other characters right after that?

Ken109 14-Mar-21 06:58 PM

we can

sometimes it's good to show instead of tell

do we even know how much damage that move does on shield rn

it's pretty small

andrew4043 14-Mar-21 06:59 PM

show a clip of that, then start with the hook

maybe

Ken109 14-Mar-21 06:59 PM

what hook

the hook is that shit dont work

andrew4043 14-Mar-21 07:00 PM

it do be true

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:00 PM

then we explain why

NickGigabyte 14-Mar-21 07:00 PM

Ok Showing off that Stone doesn't work is probably the best solution should we not have a viable hook

Because that's our hook

Spica 14-Mar-21 07:00 PM

YOOOO, andrew with the big brain hooks

NickGigabyte 14-Mar-21 07:00 PM

You show off that Stone doesn't work (edited)

Spica 14-Mar-21 07:00 PM

Dang, andrew should right this

andrew4043 14-Mar-21 07:00 PM

h

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:00 PM

you show off how little shield damage it does

Spica 14-Mar-21 07:01 PM

Ok so hear me out

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:01 PM

explain why it's like that

Spica 14-Mar-21 07:01 PM

We show clips of stone hitting people

NickGigabyte 14-Mar-21 07:01 PM

Well if we focus too much on that we might enter the "asking for buffs instead of fix" territory

But we can include it

Spica 14-Mar-21 07:01 PM

In quick succession

That one song in the background

I cant think of the name

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:01 PM

focus too much on what

Spica 14-Mar-21 07:01 PM

Uhhh, one sec

NickGigabyte 14-Mar-21 07:01 PM

Stone's little shield damage

andrew4043 14-Mar-21 07:02 PM

i thought stone's first hit dealt fine shield damage

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:02 PM

it does badly on it's own

andrew4043 14-Mar-21 07:02 PM

it's just that second hit doesn't connect at all, that's it

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:03 PM

the fact that it's missing the grounded hit on shield makes it more punishable as well

all due to a bug

the grounded hit is supposed to be there

like peanut butter and jelly

without one, the other is bad

which is why kirby players don't raw grounded stone

aerial is like "please don't shield"

cause the damage is pathetic

anyway

Ken109

do we even know how much damage that move does on shield rn

IBZ 14-Mar-21 07:05 PM

if you want an exact value Shields have 50 HP aerial stone does 21.42 grounded does 16.66 together they would do 38.08 (3/4 shield damage)

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:05 PM

sounds about right

andrew4043 14-Mar-21 07:06 PM

how much is that compared to sm4sh

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:06 PM

apparently we're missing almost half of our shield damage

we can actually throw that in the video to make our case seem stronger

"GASP HALF??"

NickGigabyte 14-Mar-21 07:07 PM

That would drive the point home much better

Plus they don't have to buff the shield damage

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:07 PM

no they never needed to

NickGigabyte 14-Mar-21 07:07 PM

Fix the Stone bug and shield damage increases as a side effect

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:08 PM

buffs are way beside the point

the move is not doing what it's supposed to do

that is the whole point

we gotta convince them that is indeed a bug and not an intended feature

cause people will use that as an argument for whatever reason

gotta make sure we include arguments for that as well

but for now we're just starting off, yeah?

NickGigabyte 14-Mar-21 07:10 PM

For now we should discuss as to how to start off with what the video plans to explain Essentially a thesis for the entire video And then we already have our body (arguments) (edited)

andrew4043 14-Mar-21 07:10 PM

when should the demo footage show up?

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:10 PM

when we're explaining how it's supposed to work

NickGigabyte

For now we should discuss as to how to start off with what the video plans to explain Essentially a thesis for the entire video And then we already have our body (arguments) (edited)

IBZ 14-Mar-21 07:12 PM

Stone doesn't work aerial + grounded hit doesn't hit shield we think it's a bug proceed to explain why

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:12 PM

we fucking know it's a bug

IBZ

Stone doesn't work aerial + grounded hit doesn't hit shield we think it's a bug proceed to explain why

NickGigabyte 14-Mar-21 07:13 PM

Basically this

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:13 PM

but yeah

when it comes to writing a script tho

can't hard, right? I'd just get straight to the point

IBZ 14-Mar-21 07:15 PM

that's what I was thinking

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:15 PM

and not miss any beats

NickGigabyte 14-Mar-21 07:15 PM

A script for something like this should get straight to the point yeah

andrew4043 14-Mar-21 07:15 PM

imo i don't want to say it's a bug, it's something the devs removed somehow

NickGigabyte 14-Mar-21 07:15 PM

No fluff, no filler, just pure arguments made about the case

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:16 PM

I would definitely call it a bug

it may be that this is unintended

IBZ 14-Mar-21 07:16 PM

how about this 'we think the move is not working as intended'

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:16 PM

if you wanna half step and be safe sure

but people aren't gonna take you as seriously

if you're not even sure

you might not be sure about this but I 100% am cause stone has been like this before ultimate was even a concept up to the demo

especially when there's actually no valid reason for it to be gone

NickGigabyte 14-Mar-21 07:18 PM

Plus at least 3 other moves have that same property that Stone has

So why remove it

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:18 PM

I'm pretty sure the DK players didn't half step when they were on that crusade to fix giant punch

NickGigabyte 14-Mar-21 07:19 PM

The Z Axis thing right?

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:19 PM

yeah

that's a similar case to this

there were probably also people that were like "w-well it's supposed to work like that"

tell them why it isn't so

IBZ 14-Mar-21 07:20 PM

one problem is that DKcord knew exactly why the glitch occured

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:20 PM

and?

IBZ 14-Mar-21 07:21 PM

we don't know exactly why the stone glitch occurs so it's harder to justify calling it a glitch

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:22 PM

I called it a bug

glitch makes it sound way more drastic

NickGigabyte 14-Mar-21 07:22 PM

I don't think glitch is the appropriate term for it imo

Because it was present in the demo, removed the final game

Yet all the characters who have similar moves have that shield hit

IBZ 14-Mar-21 07:22 PM

sorry I meant bug

NickGigabyte 14-Mar-21 07:22 PM

Oh my b

IBZ 14-Mar-21 07:22 PM

I use the terms interchangeably (edited)

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:23 PM

you're saying that DK cord knew why the bug happened

do you mean like

how to reproduce the bug?

IBZ 14-Mar-21 07:24 PM

ye

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:24 PM

or what

IBZ 14-Mar-21 07:24 PM

and the exact mechanics of it

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:24 PM

we do know tho

were you absent?

IBZ 14-Mar-21 07:25 PM

so no to the first question sorry

Spica 14-Mar-21 07:25 PM

Absent?

U mean present?

IBZ 14-Mar-21 07:25 PM

lemme rephrase I meant hold on like DK still has an armour bug with giant punch DKcord says this about it

Punch Armor Glitch:

>

Donkey Kong's Charged Giant Punch has super armor frames 11-20 on the ground and 17-20 while airbourne.

>

If DK uses Charged Punch while airbourne, then lands between frames 12-17, he gets NO Super Armor.

>

This is because the game checks if DK is grounded on frame 11. If so, he gets super armor. The game then checks if DK is airbourne frame 17. If so, he gets super armor.

>

Landing between frames 12-17 causes DK to skip both checks and thus get no super armor.

with reasoning like that it's impossible to deny that it's a bug

Spica 14-Mar-21 07:26 PM

Well, our reasoning is still solid

It was in the previous game

IBZ 14-Mar-21 07:26 PM

DK cord has that what do we know about stone to say 'this doesn't work' other than it makes no sense and it was in the demo

Spica 14-Mar-21 07:26 PM

It was in the demo

Every other character with a similar move can do it (edited)

NickGigabyte 14-Mar-21 07:26 PM

Well obviously there was a change from demo to final product

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:27 PM

as well as previous smash games

NickGigabyte 14-Mar-21 07:27 PM

Iirc there was a tweet that talked about this

But I cant remember who or where it is

Spica 14-Mar-21 07:27 PM

I think it was sk

I tried looking for it

I gave up

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:28 PM

if you want an explanation like that

NickGigabyte 14-Mar-21 07:28 PM

Pain he's not active rn

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:28 PM

we can easily do that with the information we have rn

you do realize that the grounded variant of stone does become active when you land from the air, right?

IBZ 14-Mar-21 07:29 PM

ye

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:29 PM

like someone can get hit with only the grounded hit

when you land

but that's only if you miss the aerial hit

you can't hit both though

and that is the bug

we know how it works

we can easily explain it to someone that doesn't know

NickGigabyte 14-Mar-21 07:31 PM

If we can recreate what Ken just said in a clip along with comparison to 4 and other characters our case remains soild

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 14-Mar-21 07:31 PM

we have a clip too

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:31 PM

yeah dk cord used frame data to explain their bug

so can we, i don't see the issue

you say we can't call it a bug

what stopped them from calling theirs a bug

andrew4043 14-Mar-21 07:32 PM

only me

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:32 PM

what possible argument is there

Spica 14-Mar-21 07:32 PM

Ok so the bug specifically is that the grounded hit and the air hit dont hit at the same time

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:33 PM

not at the same time

Spica 14-Mar-21 07:33 PM

With stone being the only move that has that quality

In succession?

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:33 PM

more like once kirby lands

it's supposed to be there

but it isn't

Spica 14-Mar-21 07:33 PM

I thought it was just ignored

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:33 PM

ignored?

IBZ 14-Mar-21 07:34 PM

ye like the hitbox is touching shield but shield isn't affected

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:34 PM

nah the entire hit is missing

IBZ 14-Mar-21 07:34 PM

you could probably visualise it with the hitbox mod

not for the video ofc, they'd ignore it if you use mods

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:35 PM

if the hit wasn't missing there

it would hit the shield

andrew4043 14-Mar-21 07:35 PM

does ground hit if opponent parries aerial hit and then stands there

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:35 PM

no

Spica 14-Mar-21 07:35 PM

No ken, its there

andrew4043 14-Mar-21 07:35 PM

then show that

to

too

Spica 14-Mar-21 07:36 PM

Like sometimes, both can hit

But it doesnt hit shield

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:36 PM

what do you mean

Spica 14-Mar-21 07:36 PM

Theres a weird thing where sometimes if u land on someone with stone, both the air and ground hitbox hit

U know that

So that means the hitbox is there

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:37 PM

yes i do

not all the time

i don't think so

https://clips.twitch.tv/FragileTubularMartenDatSheffy

ken109 - what

Watch ken109's clip titled "what"

just because the grounded hit is there SOMETIMES doesn't mean it's always there

Spica 14-Mar-21 07:39 PM

If its there sometimes (edited)

Then it should sometimes hit shield sometimes (edited)

Which it doesnt

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:39 PM

it should definitely hit shield

it consistently does not

Spica 14-Mar-21 07:40 PM

Im pretty sure it just doesnt hit shield

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:40 PM

and i'm sure the hit just isn't there

at all

Spica 14-Mar-21 07:40 PM

Eh, im usually wrong about these things

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:41 PM

it goes missing after the aerial hit connects

Spica 14-Mar-21 07:41 PM

If this was the kirbycord, someone would come in and correct me

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:41 PM

you're probably talking to the guy who's the most familiar with this move out of the whole cord

not to brag, weird thing to brag about

we can like

quadriple check if you like

Ken109

it goes missing after the aerial hit connects

IBZ 14-Mar-21 07:44 PM

you could test this in game with 2 opponents one shielding the other on the other side in range of the landing hit but not the aerial hit

Spica 14-Mar-21 07:44 PM

Nah ur probably right

ill take the L

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:44 PM

no let's be throrough

i turned on my switch

if you go to training mode

you can spawn in a blast box

now usually

the aerial hit alone can't detonate it

the grounded hit is the one that does it

this worked all the time in smash 4

in this game

the whole ass hit is missing

I can even screen share if you'd like

Spica 14-Mar-21 07:48 PM

Nah, I believe u

And i cant watch anyway

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:48 PM

just to be extra sure

this also works on several blast boxes that are together

now idk about you but i'm 1000% sure this is a bug

idk why you might not agree with me but this is what i think without a doubt in my mind

and the point i want to drive home

saying stuff like it might be intended just makes us look unsure if we even wanna make a case for this

like sure we don't know what the devs were thinking, but neither did dk discord

didn't stop them

IBZ 14-Mar-21 07:51 PM

btw I agree with what you're saying (that it's a bug) I just thought that we needed some more solid reasoning to back that statement up in the video

Ken109 14-Mar-21 07:52 PM

we have more than enough

enough to shift perspective

people will go from "maybe it's supposed to be like that" to "no that's definitely not supposed to work like that"

wow i haven't turned on my switch in a while

Epic 14-Mar-21 07:59 PM

honestly the blast box example seems like it would be good to add (edited)

Ken109 14-Mar-21 08:06 PM

maybe

but we'd also need to show it in smash 4 as well

if we're even gonna use that example

the important things to point out when we're discussing this

Epic 14-Mar-21 08:08 PM

aren't you able to record in smash4?

either you or andrew, ive seen both of you capture footage of it

Ken109 14-Mar-21 08:08 PM

the aerial hit alone, the landing hit alone, and then both together

i can record it

just don't see why we would need it

the blast box thing was just to be super thorough

it's nothing we haven't seen already

Epic 14-Mar-21 08:10 PM

true

Ken109 14-Mar-21 08:10 PM

spica only tried to argue that the hit ignores shield

Epic 14-Mar-21 08:10 PM

ah

Ken109 14-Mar-21 08:10 PM

which is false

the hit isn't there at all

which we already know

if push comes to shove i'll just type down my thoughts on that virtual paper if we can't do a script

just let me know, i'll help however i can

Epic 14-Mar-21 08:19 PM

you're the person who's mainly directing this, id think your thoughts would be really important on how you want it to be carried out (edited)

Ken109 14-Mar-21 08:19 PM

true

but i'm a shitty writer

like i said before

andrew4043 14-Mar-21 08:20 PM

idk this was pretty good

Ken109 14-Mar-21 08:20 PM

writing was kind of my weakest subject in school

Epic 14-Mar-21 08:20 PM

the main problem isn't really writing an essay

it's writing an essay that we're going to be repeating to people

so it can't be a normal english thing thats just people throwing a bunch of words and prompts at you for you to write 5 pages for

Ken109 14-Mar-21 08:21 PM

i hate those

Epic 14-Mar-21 08:21 PM

yea those suck

this is just us delivering knowledge and trying to get people on our side

it's like what you normally do when explaining something whether in vod critique or in metagame

only difference is that it's being spoken and edited

Ken109 14-Mar-21 08:22 PM

I haven't ever written something for masses to see

I'm not much of a content creator

was just thinking there's probably someone here that can do a better job than me

if there isn't then sure fuck it i'll do it whatever

Epic 14-Mar-21 08:23 PM

ill probably work with spica on it, but i'd definitely love your feedback

if it doesn't have a certain style to it then it won't really work

Ken109 14-Mar-21 08:23 PM

like who would you ask first when it comes to making a script for a video

juggleboy

or me

Epic 14-Mar-21 08:24 PM

yea fair point, id go juggleboy

Ken109 14-Mar-21 08:24 PM

speaking of

did anyone talk to him

maybe he could help

Epic 14-Mar-21 08:24 PM

trow tried, he wasn't interested

think it might be worth another shot though

we still never got phan7om's response either

Ken109 14-Mar-21 08:24 PM

dude has been offline forever

idk

Epic 14-Mar-21 08:25 PM

ill ask him on twitter

..i cannot dm him on twitter

Ken109 14-Mar-21 08:25 PM

maybe he's busy

Epic 14-Mar-21 08:25 PM

he turned them off entirely

Ken109 14-Mar-21 08:26 PM

o

what about discord

Epic 14-Mar-21 08:26 PM

ill send a dm before i head to bed unless someone beats me to it

Ken109

the whole ass hit is missing

SK 15-Mar-21 08:20 AM

This... Is actually an interesting point

I never tested with the Blast Box, but the fact that even an object ignores the landing hitbox is interesting to me

I'm going to look into that in a bit, I feel like this would be important to dig deeper into

1

Spica 15-Mar-21 09:22 AM

https://discord.com/channels/500782972799156234/500788424962473994/725119947638046831

Is this still a thing?

Ken109 15-Mar-21 09:24 AM

Would fall in line with what I said yesterday

So I wouldn't be surprised

I said the hit is missing, that could be why.

Spica 15-Mar-21 09:27 AM

So i was looking at Ken’s clip

The reason it happened is because the person was still invincible from doing a normal getup

So stone hit very low

Maybe the reason why there is a double hit is because they hit at the same time

Ken109 15-Mar-21 09:29 AM

most likely the case

Spica 15-Mar-21 09:29 AM

And the ground knockback happens because it stays out longer?

Ken109 15-Mar-21 09:29 AM

You can't really do that in a real match

Spica 15-Mar-21 09:30 AM

So when u hit stone since the aerial hitbox stays out

The ground hitbox is ignored

Unless they hit at the same time

Ken109 15-Mar-21 09:30 AM

You'd probably have to be frame perfect

Spica 15-Mar-21 09:30 AM

And theres no plausible way to do that on onshield

Especially ingame

Ken109 15-Mar-21 09:31 AM

Of course not

Spica 15-Mar-21 09:32 AM

If this checks out and we can effectively explain this

Theres no way this isnt a bug

Ken109 15-Mar-21 09:32 AM

You still had doubts?

Spica 15-Mar-21 09:33 AM

No no

Epic 15-Mar-21 09:33 AM

i did it the other way fuck (edited)

Spica 15-Mar-21 09:33 AM

But this proves it without a shadow of a doubt

Epic 15-Mar-21 09:34 AM

spica's got a point, doing something like that can completely confirm that this is unintentional which helps get rid of people trying to argue against it (edited)

Ken109 15-Mar-21 09:34 AM

I think the term is "beyond a shadow of a doubt"

1

Spica

https://discord.com/channels/500782972799156234/500788424962473994/725119947638046831

SK 15-Mar-21 09:34 AM

I'd like to double check my claims here before I confirm this because i have a small feeling that the visuals are incorrect for Kirby

Which I can do that right now, actually

1 sec

Ken109 15-Mar-21 09:36 AM

oh right since it's early

It's prolly not terribly late in japan

SK 15-Mar-21 09:39 AM

knew it

the observation i made back in that link is wrong with kirby's stone (edited)

Spica 15-Mar-21 09:39 AM

Riiiip

Ken109 15-Mar-21 09:40 AM

SK 15-Mar-21 09:40 AM

the training modpack has a problem where hitboxes will look as if they last 1 frame longer than they actually do

a purely visual bug with the modpack, but still annoying

fortunately the hitbox/hurtbox visual mod (separate from the modpack) doesn't have this issue

Spica 15-Mar-21 09:40 AM

What does it actually look like?

SK 15-Mar-21 09:41 AM

frame right before landing

landing

wait a second

bruh, what

ok let me just record this

but it looks like i... wasn't wrong?

Ken109 15-Mar-21 09:43 AM

Spica 15-Mar-21 09:43 AM

Ken109 15-Mar-21 09:43 AM

does it change if you hit something

SK 15-Mar-21 09:44 AM

nvm my test subject is just too tall

(sephiroth)

was testing with a BF plat

Spica 15-Mar-21 09:44 AM

SK

landing

SK 15-Mar-21 09:44 AM

i'm trying to figure out if this hitbox is solely landing or aerial included

because the grounded hitbox is entirely different from the landing hitbox when visualized

it's likely just an interpolation thing

but it has me too curious

Spica 15-Mar-21 09:46 AM

Are there 3 grounded stone hitboxes there?

SK 15-Mar-21 09:46 AM

that's what i'm trying to figure out

i'm pretty sure it's just 2

which if it is, that's the landing/grounded hitboxes

Spica 15-Mar-21 09:47 AM

If thats the case, it would make more sense that the ken clip is actually all 3 grounded hitboxes hitting at the same time

Cause it does 40%

SK 15-Mar-21 09:47 AM

it isn't

that's the aerial + grounded hitbox

you can't have multiple hitboxes from the same move hit at the same time

Spica 15-Mar-21 09:48 AM

Aerial + grounded should do 32

SK 15-Mar-21 09:48 AM

1v1 multiplier & freshness bonus

alright, it's just the grounded hitbox

somehow this is consistent vs ridley on a BF plat not like it's useful, but at least makes my testing easier and it's just funny

Spica 15-Mar-21 09:49 AM

Optimal play?

Ken109 15-Mar-21 09:49 AM

Hardly.

SK 15-Mar-21 09:49 AM

alright, so basically i was wrong about the whole "aerial hitbox not being deleted" thing

and the visual i linked above with the grounded hitbox is interpolation rather than an extra hitbox

Ken109 15-Mar-21 09:50 AM

So why is the grounded hit missing when I hit something

SK 15-Mar-21 09:51 AM

that's the next mystery to figure out, primarily with objects (items)

with players, the grounded/landing stone hitbox has a check to see if the victim is airborne or not

this has existed for basically the entire time the move itself has had a grounded hitbox

so it will always miss vs airborne players

Ken109 15-Mar-21 09:51 AM

So since brawl

SK 15-Mar-21 09:51 AM

yeah

this also applies to victims holding ledge

since they're not in a grounded state

but the fact that the landing hit is ignored vs a mere object is the strange part

because you can nail a scenario where the landing hit will connect vs an opponent hit by the aerial portion (i.e. ridley clip i just shared)

Ken109 15-Mar-21 09:54 AM

Did you ever visualize stone when it hits something, or does that not matter

SK 15-Mar-21 09:54 AM

wdym

Ken109 15-Mar-21 09:54 AM

Like normally

SK 15-Mar-21 09:54 AM

the hitboxes?

Ken109 15-Mar-21 09:54 AM

Does the landing hitbox change

SK 15-Mar-21 09:54 AM

not at all

Ken109 15-Mar-21 09:55 AM

Then why doesn't it hit anything after the aerial hit

SK 15-Mar-21 09:55 AM

the landing hitbox will still occur and damage anything around it except the blast box here

Ken109 15-Mar-21 09:55 AM

Im fucking triggered

Spica 15-Mar-21 09:56 AM

So if u hit ridley with the air hitbox

Will the blastbox take the grounded hitbox damage?

SK 15-Mar-21 09:57 AM

yes

Spica 15-Mar-21 09:57 AM

So if u hit them with the airborne hitbox, the grounded hitbox is ignored

SK 15-Mar-21 09:57 AM

Ken109 15-Mar-21 09:58 AM

SK 15-Mar-21 09:58 AM

this is so fucking weird

Ken109 15-Mar-21 09:58 AM

im gonna punch something

Spica 15-Mar-21 09:58 AM

My explanation cant be right tho

Because then, how can the other thing happen

NickGigabyte 15-Mar-21 09:59 AM

There's your evidence for it being a bug without a doubt Its bugged for not just shields but items as a whole

SK 15-Mar-21 09:59 AM

we can literally make a scenario where both hitboxes connect vs a player, but we can't get it to happen vs an item?????????????????

Ken109 15-Mar-21 09:59 AM

I tried this with multiple blast boxes too

None of them got hit by the landing hitbox

To get it to hit vs a player we gotta do some weird stuff

Like get both to hit at the same time

SK 15-Mar-21 10:02 AM

the landing hitbox even has a value that literally tells it to hit every hurtbox

Hitbits (edited)

Spica 15-Mar-21 10:02 AM

If the character is in a situation where they dont take knockback

Like the metal suit

What happens

SK 15-Mar-21 10:02 AM

hmm

we'd need an armor situation probably

let me get someone to armor through it

actually

i can just test stone vs stone

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:03 AM

Under normal circumsrances I predict they don't get hit by the landing

SK 15-Mar-21 10:03 AM

the landing hit is ignored, bruh

Spica 15-Mar-21 10:03 AM

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:03 AM

SK 15-Mar-21 10:04 AM

why does this HAPPEN

Spica 15-Mar-21 10:04 AM

How tf does this happen then https://discord.com/channels/818643321345540126/818648316936978482/821032249310576650

SK 15-Mar-21 10:04 AM

i genuinely have no clue

maybe it's because the victim is put into a different state??? hitlag is just completely fine i guess????

so we basically figured out that

If Aerial Stone Hits Ignore Landing hitbox on that target only, but only if they aren't in hitlag/hitstun while being in a grounded state?

If Aerial Stone misses Landing hitbox behaves as normal

(edited)

i'm so confused

Spica 15-Mar-21 10:07 AM

So

If they dont go into hitlag tho

Like super armor

SK 15-Mar-21 10:07 AM

super armor still incurs hitlag

Spica 15-Mar-21 10:07 AM

It does?

SK 15-Mar-21 10:07 AM

but they're not in hitstun

yeah

Spica 15-Mar-21 10:07 AM

SK 15-Mar-21 10:07 AM

so my guess is that hitstun is the more prominent role here

or rather the state where the character is flinching from being hit

Spica 15-Mar-21 10:08 AM

U think theres a double hit because the second hitbox comes out before the hitlag? (edited)

SK 15-Mar-21 10:08 AM

no, hitlag happens as soon as the move connects

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:08 AM

Try a timer

Spica 15-Mar-21 10:08 AM

SK 15-Mar-21 10:08 AM

the double hit actually working vs a player is likely due to the fact they change states while being grounded

going from a normal grounded state -> hurt grounded state

but that begs the question

why that situation exclusively

why does this not occur with regular grounded interactions like stone vs blast box or stone vs stone

my answer?

hell if i know

NickGigabyte 15-Mar-21 10:09 AM

Iirc you said that Stone's landing hit only connects if the opponent is grounded correct (edited)

SK 15-Mar-21 10:09 AM

yeah, it only hits grounded opponents

NickGigabyte 15-Mar-21 10:10 AM

Stone's landing hit sends the opponent into the air, which is what we've found

So as a result

Its a fault on hitbox detection (edited)

The game realized the character you hit isn't in the air, so the grounded hitbox doesn't connect

Remember the Ridely thing you did (edited)

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:11 AM

Nah

Cause it worked in the demo

SK 15-Mar-21 10:11 AM

well because the victim is still in a grounded state, they aren't launched when it comes to the ridley clip

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:11 AM

Stone sent at the same angle

NickGigabyte 15-Mar-21 10:12 AM

Well that just threw out any possible answer I could create This is super odd

SK 15-Mar-21 10:13 AM

this absolutely confirms that this is a bug, regardless of any speculation that was made there is absolutely NO way that a move with a value that tells it to hit every hurtbox should fail to hit any hurtbox unless if there's a specific check for that (which grounded/landing stone has that for ONLY grounded opponents) (edited)

i know most of us basically say it's a bug

but this 100000% confirms it

NickGigabyte 15-Mar-21 10:14 AM

Imma save these images for reference

SK 15-Mar-21 10:14 AM

and the scripts do not have anything that tell the landing hitbox to ignore the victim it just hit

plus, gameplay proves that too

you can double stone hit vs players

yet this doesn't work vs shields or fucking items (edited)

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:14 AM

SK 15-Mar-21 10:15 AM

if you need a direct reference, this is the site i'm using to view scripts https://rubendal.github.io/ssbu/#/Character/Kirby

Smash Ultimate Data Viewer

you'd want to be looking at SpecialLwToGround for the landing hitbox

comparing this to other scripts as well, like bowser's down b, has hardly any differences (the only differences are just small things like damage values or cosmetic stuff)

functionally they are written the same way

Spica 15-Mar-21 10:18 AM

So they are intended to function the same

But for some unknown reason

They dont

SK 15-Mar-21 10:18 AM

correct

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:18 AM

Spica 15-Mar-21 10:18 AM

Thats all we neeeeed

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:18 AM

wait so

Epic 15-Mar-21 10:18 AM

gotta love that smash intern

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:18 AM

in that ridley example with the blast box

you only hit ridley with the aerial hit

SK 15-Mar-21 10:19 AM

correct

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:19 AM

and then only hit the blast box with the landing hit

and vice versa

Spica

So if u hit ridley with the air hitbox

SK 15-Mar-21 10:19 AM

hit ridley with aerial, hit blast box with grounded it was to answer this

right

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:19 AM

you can't ever hit either with both

unless you do that weird interaction with the platform

SK 15-Mar-21 10:19 AM

right

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:20 AM

alright just making sure

SK 15-Mar-21 10:20 AM

so basically, in 95% of scenarios, you can only land 1 hit of stone rather than both

Spica 15-Mar-21 10:21 AM

But that just raises the question

SK 15-Mar-21 10:21 AM

the only way you can hit both hits at once is if you do some black magic in a real match which involves breaking your opponent's controller

or if it's a FFA/dubs/trips/quads/ICs MU/Rosa MU, where you hit 1 dude with aerial and another dude with grounded nearby (edited)

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:21 AM

in other words

again

SK 15-Mar-21 10:21 AM

a

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:22 AM

whiffing the aerial on 1 opponent

and whiffing the grounded on the other

SK 15-Mar-21 10:22 AM

exactly

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:22 AM

SK 15-Mar-21 10:22 AM

which the game does the latter for you lmao

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:22 AM

thats stupid as shit lmao

SK 15-Mar-21 10:23 AM

so i essentially am stumped at this point

Spica 15-Mar-21 10:23 AM

Yo sk, what happens if u do stone when ur mini sized

SK 15-Mar-21 10:23 AM

there's no way i can reliably explain why the double hit scenario can work vs a player but fail in literally every other scenario in detail i can really just say it's a bug because that's what it is (edited)

stone should just be the same, but smaller

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:26 AM

how would you sum all of this up

cause this is going in the video, right?

SK 15-Mar-21 10:27 AM

for sure

NickGigabyte 15-Mar-21 10:27 AM

All clips and images should be shared in the video Especially the findings found today

So the code, blast box testing, platform testing etc

Just write them into the Google Doc and we're soild

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:30 AM

this move broken

in a bad way

SK 15-Mar-21 10:33 AM

i'd sum it up like this Stone is a move that has both an Aerial Hitbox & a Landing Hitbox In normal circumstances..., If the Aerial hitbox connects vs a player, the Landing hitbox should miss due to the victim being put airborne by the initial hit. If the Aerial hitbox connects vs an armored player, the Landing hitbox should connect due to the victim being in a grounded state. If the Aerial hitbox connects vs an item (i.e. Blast Box), the Landing hitbox should connect as the move is coded to hit all types of hurtboxes. If the Aerial hitbox connects vs a shield, the Landing hitbox should connect on the shield as it has no unique shield damage values (so it deals normal shield damage) and the defender is still in a state that doesn't nullify the landing hitbox. In actuality... If the Aerial hitbox connects vs a player, the Landing hitbox will usually miss due to the victim being airborne by the aerial hit, BUT the Landing hitbox can connect if it connects the absolute next frame while the victim is stuck in hitlag. If the Aerial hitbox connects vs an armored player, the Landing hitbox is ignored to that player specifically. (It will still hit other nearby players.) If the aerial hitbox connects vs an item (i.e. Blast Box), the Landing hitbox is ignored vs that item. (It will still hit nearby players.) If the aerial hitbox connects vs shield, the Landing hitbox is ignored. (It will still hit nearby players.)

the move is fuckin' broken, man.

do we have smash 4 footage of the blast box and armored scenarios?

i can grab those if not

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:34 AM

I can screen share

SK 15-Mar-21 10:34 AM

we obviously have many, many stone vs shield scenarios with smash 4

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:34 AM

me playing smash 4 again lol

SK 15-Mar-21 10:34 AM

it's ok i can grab it myself

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:34 AM

do you need me to

alright

SK 15-Mar-21 10:35 AM

i'll do that later though, got some plans to play some games with a couple peeps

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:35 AM

i know for a fact that blast box interacts normally in 4

SK 15-Mar-21 10:35 AM

glad we looked into this more but like, wtf man

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:36 AM

wtf man indeed

SK

i'd sum it up like this Stone is a move that has both an Aerial Hitbox & a Landing Hitbox In normal circumstances..., If the Aerial hitbox connects vs a player, the Landing hitbox should miss due to the victim being put airborne by the initial hit. If the Aerial hitbox connects vs an armored player, the Landing hitbox should connect due to the victim being in a grounded state. If the Aerial hitbox connects vs an item (i.e. Blast Box), the Landing hitbox should connect as the move is coded to hit all types of hurtboxes. If the Aerial hitbox connects vs a shield, the Landing hitbox should connect on the shield as it has no unique shield damage values (so it deals normal shield damage) and the defender is still in a state that doesn't nullify the landing hitbox. In actuality... If the Aerial hitbox connects vs a player, the Landing hitbox will usually miss due to the victim being airborne by the aerial hit, BUT the Landing hitbox can connect if it connects the absolute next frame while the victim is stuck in hitlag. If the Aerial hitbox connects vs an armored player, the Landing hitbox is ignored to that player specifically. (It will still hit other nearby players.) If the aerial hitbox connects vs an item (i.e. Blast Box), the Landing hitbox is ignored vs that item. (It will still hit nearby players.) If the aerial hitbox connects vs shield, the Landing hitbox is ignored. (It will still hit nearby players.)

Epic 15-Mar-21 10:37 AM

this should be pinned

Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.

Ken109 15-Mar-21 10:38 AM

Pinned a message.

SK 15-Mar-21 05:57 PM

dont mind the cursor, just forgot to hide it when recording emulator footage

andrew4043 15-Mar-21 05:58 PM

sk lowkey flexing his pc specs

SK 15-Mar-21 05:59 PM

considering the abundant footage of ken breaking shields in smash 4, alongside my own + rk breaking tweek's shield, i don't think i need to provide footage for the shield interaction

but blast box & armor scenarios are there

Epic 15-Mar-21 06:06 PM

the innocence

Ken109 15-Mar-21 07:10 PM

lol

Spica 16-Mar-21 06:56 AM

Ok, i wrote a rough draft for the first paragraph

Grammer isnt that good

Structure isnt that good

It needs some reworks

But id appreciate some opinions before i make some edits

Spica 16-Mar-21 07:04 AM

My thoughts for the structure of the entire paper were

What is stone

What’s wrong

Why is it bugged

Addressing counterarguments

I used the intro to explain what stone is

Idk if u guys agree with that

Also. Idk if u guys like the way I structured the first paragraph

Epic 16-Mar-21 07:28 AM

i think adding descriptive words ruins the taste a bit, but i like the style you went for

ideally i'd probably put like "Stone. Everyone who has played a kirby knows how this move works. You became a rock, tanking damage in order to crash down on anyone who might be in your way." (edited)

Spica 16-Mar-21 07:32 AM

Yeah, i didnt like the way i wrote that part either

Ok i changed it

After a brief transformation, Kirby becomes an armored angel of death, annihilating anyone who dare stand between him and the ground.

I dont know about armored angel of death

I kept it so i could leave out the part about it tanking damage

Epic 16-Mar-21 07:35 AM

yea thats why i just took it out entirely think about it, you're going to be speaking this

i dont think armored angel of death rolls off the tongue too well

Spica 16-Mar-21 07:35 AM

What should i replace it with

Epic

ideally i'd probably put like "Stone. Everyone who has played a kirby knows how this move works. You became a rock, tanking damage in order to crash down on anyone who might be in your way." (edited)

Epic 16-Mar-21 07:36 AM

id just remove it entirely, see this

keep it nice and simple for people to get an idea of what you want to talk about

Spica 16-Mar-21 07:36 AM

Epic 16-Mar-21 07:38 AM

From a glance, it's relatively simple and does it's job right to the point. But what if I were to tell you that in ultimate, that wasn't the case? shortened both sentences after the initial edit

the problem is establishing a hook

and honestly id like to look for kenzie or sk on this one

Spica 16-Mar-21 07:42 AM

Ok, i made some changes

After a brief transformation, Kirby becomes an impregnable rock, crushing anyone between him and the ground. From a glance, it seems like this move works entirely as intended, however what if i told you that in the transition from smash 4 to ultimate, stone lost one of its most complex uses. This is, the lost kirby shield break tool.

I need some more after complex uses

Epic 16-Mar-21 07:43 AM

see it's that hook again

i dont think we can proceed until we nab a line that's satisfying

with paragraph 1 anyway

Spica 16-Mar-21 07:56 AM

Ok, edited it again

Idk if u guys like the hook

Its def not the best

I couldnt think of an adjective to describe a newb kirby, so i think epic should come up with that(since he’s the voice)

Epic 16-Mar-21 08:08 AM

p sure we swapped voices but id still love to atleast go over it once to get an idea of how it would feel

Spica 16-Mar-21 08:08 AM

Wait, whos the voice

Epic 16-Mar-21 08:09 AM

actually i dunno if we swapped or anything, sk just offered to do it if needed

i just don't trust a lip smacking 16 year old with a headset mic so i'm probably worst case scenario

Spica 16-Mar-21 08:10 AM

Nah, u got dat youtuber voice

Epic 16-Mar-21 08:19 AM

need the experience though

Ken109 16-Mar-21 11:07 AM

Yo

Epic 16-Mar-21 11:12 AM

Spica 16-Mar-21 11:13 AM

Yo ken, read what we got so far and tell me what i should change

Huh, i wonder why someone cut the intro into 2 paragraphs

And eh, came by doesnt really work either

Ken109 16-Mar-21 11:15 AM

You don't really need to describe the move

Spica 16-Mar-21 11:15 AM

Well u still should

U gotta assume the audience doesnt know anything

Just in case

Ken109 16-Mar-21 11:16 AM

Especially when we're going to show footage and stuff

Even the most basic casual know about it

Spica 16-Mar-21 11:16 AM

Well still

Not everyone will know about the grounded hitbox

Some people dont even know that u can cancel stone with a second b press

It may seem like common knowledge, but its not really

Ken109 16-Mar-21 11:18 AM

No they won't know so we lead up to that

Spica 16-Mar-21 11:18 AM

Yeah

So first we quickly go over the basics

Ken109 16-Mar-21 11:18 AM

Make it clear what you're talking about and what your point is

Spica 16-Mar-21 11:19 AM

To fully understand what the problem is, they need to understand what stone does (edited)

Ken109 16-Mar-21 11:19 AM

Yeah

Spica 16-Mar-21 11:19 AM

The overview doesnt need to be long

Just basic (edited)

Ken109 16-Mar-21 11:20 AM

But before you do that

Whats your point

Spica 16-Mar-21 11:20 AM

Point in what

Ken109 16-Mar-21 11:20 AM

Of this whole thing what message are you trying to deliver

I didn't mean don't describe it at all

But just leave out details and language you don't need

Spica 16-Mar-21 11:21 AM

Yeh ok

I havent written it yet

But what do u think about the intro so far

I know the hook isnt amazing

But i cant really think of a better one

Ken109 16-Mar-21 11:24 AM

Try more straight forward and simple wording

Spica 16-Mar-21 11:24 AM

Ok

3rd rewrite

Ken109 16-Mar-21 11:24 AM

We're also trying to get this translated

Spica 16-Mar-21 11:24 AM

Thats similar to what epic said

Ken109 16-Mar-21 11:26 AM

You're also taking time to get to the point

How would you briefly describe stone

Spica 16-Mar-21 11:27 AM

Ok, i simplfied it

Ken109 16-Mar-21 11:31 AM

I gotta open the google doc, right?

Spica 16-Mar-21 11:33 AM

At a glance, Stone looks like a fully functional move. After a brief transformation, Kirby becomes an impregnable rock, crushing anyone below him. It seems like this move works entirely as intended. However, in the transition from Smash 4 to Ultimate, a bug drastically reduced the possible complexity stone can have. With the transition to ultimate, kirby mains were (shocked? Appalled? Idk) to find out that kirby had lost his best shield break tool. (edited)

Ken109 16-Mar-21 11:35 AM

It is a simple move

Spica 16-Mar-21 11:35 AM

Yeh u right

Ken109 16-Mar-21 11:36 AM

and probably drop the "what if i told you" bit

Brb getting on pc

Spica 16-Mar-21 11:37 AM

What should i replace it with

Should i replace it with anything?

Ken109 16-Mar-21 11:39 AM

nothing

Spica 16-Mar-21 11:39 AM

Ken109 16-Mar-21 11:39 AM

Gimmie a sec

Internet is slow

Took like a full min for that to post

Spica 16-Mar-21 11:48 AM

Hello again

Ken109 16-Mar-21 12:01 PM

Internet cut out, gonna take a while.

Ken109 16-Mar-21 03:07 PM

ok it's back

Mai]{u💫 16-Mar-21 03:28 PM

Yay.

Ken109 16-Mar-21 06:40 PM

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:20 AM

Yo ken

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:21 AM

Hey.

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:21 AM

Anything else u wanna say about the opening?

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:21 AM

Yeah

Maybe be more direct and explain stuff in a less roundabout way

Like be as straight to the point as you can

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:24 AM

Ok

So i edited it

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:24 AM

Like can you make your description for the move any more simple

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:25 AM

At a glance, Stone looks like a fully functional move. After a brief transformation, Kirby becomes an impregnable rock, crushing anyone below him. It seems like this move works entirely as intended. However, in the transition from Smash 4 to Ultimate, a bug removed one of stone’s best features, its ability to break shields.

Anything u want me to change?

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:26 AM

Yeah

The description for the move and that last part

Which part of the move is broken

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:28 AM

The part about it not breaking shields

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:29 AM

Not specific enough (edited)

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:29 AM

Ok, what about it should i change

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:30 AM

So when you describe some details like how a move works, it's important to be specific at times

Otherwise people won't get what you're talking about

All people will get from reading that is that stone doesn't break shields

Which can just leave wrong implications

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:32 AM

I mean, ur not supposed to go into detail in the opening

What do u want to imply?

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:33 AM

No you're not but this leads up to the explanation

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:34 AM

No, it leads into an explanation of how stone works, which then leads into an explanation of the problem

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:35 AM

Wait then what's the goal of this part

Epic 19-Mar-21 08:35 AM

i think you just need to build it up a bit more people already know stone, you just need to simplify it

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:36 AM

U cant just assume people know stone

Epic 19-Mar-21 08:36 AM

shorten what the actual move is supposed to be and then work more about the explanation into the problem

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:36 AM

U need to explain stuff

Epic 19-Mar-21 08:36 AM

At a glance, Stone looks like a fully functional move. After a brief transformation, Kirby becomes an impregnable rock, crushing anyone below him.

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:36 AM

U dont need to explain everything

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:36 AM

Yeah like the most basic description of stone I can give you is that Kirby turns into a rock, and drops to the ground

Epic 19-Mar-21 08:36 AM

why is it fully functional

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:37 AM

But its important to explain how stone works

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:37 AM

It is but does the word impregnable help people understand you any better

or the "at a glance" part

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:38 AM

I was planning on giving a brief description of how it functions before going into detail about the 2 hitboxes

Epic 19-Mar-21 08:39 AM

"If you've played against any Kirby, you probably know how stone works. Kirby goes up, turns into a rock, and drops down to deal heavy damage."

how's that

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:39 AM

Maybe instead of my kirby

We say like, little timmy

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:40 AM

wait wut

Epic 19-Mar-21 08:40 AM

huh

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:40 AM

Like the average 8 year old

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:40 AM

Why

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:40 AM

Its the common 8 year old kirby strategy

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:41 AM

Yeah but why mention it at all

Epic 19-Mar-21 08:41 AM

i wanted to think about it but basing it off of the 8 year old specifically is pretty pointless better to broaden it to everyone

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:41 AM

A joke?

Epic 19-Mar-21 08:41 AM

because whether you're a good kirby or a bad kirby

stone is still pretty usable

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:41 AM

But like, 8 year olds only use stone

Compared to experienced players

Who almost never use it

Epic 19-Mar-21 08:42 AM

but that isn't what we're looking for we want to show why stone would help experienced players if we broaden it to the funny 8 year old move we're throwing away all seriousness off the bat (edited)

we can slip in jokes here and there, that's probably fine

but as a starter im not too sure

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:43 AM

Wait what?

U suggested the joke

Epic 19-Mar-21 08:43 AM

i did earlier but i went back on it

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:43 AM

I just changed it a bit

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:43 AM

ok so like when you write something like this, it's important to try making people understand why this move is broken

Epic 19-Mar-21 08:43 AM

actually i should have probably mentioned i did that

sorry about that

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:44 AM

U make them understand later

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:44 AM

The opening should lay down the foundation

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:44 AM

The intro is to tell them the move is broken in the first place

That’s something they dont know

Epic 19-Mar-21 08:45 AM

the intro is your way of leading it up it being broken should be told at the end of the intro, to segue right into the explanations

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:45 AM

Yeah but all you're telling them is that the move is bugged because it doesn't break shields

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:45 AM

Yeah, and then we tell them why it doesnt break shield in the body

And why thats a bug

I cant explain that in the intro

IBZ 19-Mar-21 08:47 AM

How about this 'Sometimes stone just won't hit the opponent when it should' Those words, or something like that Because that is essentially what the bug is, as sk explained

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:47 AM

But thats not really accurate

And it leads to a wrong interpretation

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:47 AM

We're not trying to tell them thag stone doesn't break shields, we're trying to tell them that a hitbox doesn't work when it should

IBZ 19-Mar-21 08:47 AM

You explain it further in the video And no it is accurate

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:48 AM

Less shield damage is just the consequence

Epic 19-Mar-21 08:48 AM

i just got an idea

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:48 AM

Ok ok, so i think i was looking at this wrong

And I understand now

ill try to fix it

Epic 19-Mar-21 08:48 AM

you know how sk used stone with the fixed values before, and he managed to land stone with both of its hitboxes

took a video of it

and shows what it would look like if it was actually fixed

we could run that clip by at the very start, or maybe in a cpu game so nobody gets banned

"This will never happen." -essay begin-

although that's just the intro for the video itself

not the actual essay

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:50 AM

I dont think we should show the modded stone

Cause that makes it look like we know how to fix it

We really dont

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:51 AM

We do know how to fix it lmao

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:51 AM

By fix, i mean it makes it look like we know the root of the problem

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:51 AM

We do know the root of the problem lmao

Epic 19-Mar-21 08:51 AM

yea

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:52 AM

By root of the problem i mean we know why both dont hit

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:52 AM

We do know why both- bruh

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:52 AM

We do?

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:52 AM

Did you forget already

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:52 AM

Why dont both hit?

Epic 19-Mar-21 08:52 AM

pins

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:53 AM

That just says what happens, not why

Epic 19-Mar-21 08:53 AM

but more specifically, im pretty sure it was an value in the code that got messed up by one

i dont know how it works though but i just know that it happened

IBZ 19-Mar-21 08:53 AM

No epic that value (the part value) is the same in similar moves

Epic 19-Mar-21 08:53 AM

PAIN

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:54 AM

The main takeaway i got from that is that it’s definitely a bug because the code is identical to someone like bowser but for some reason, it acts differently

Epic 19-Mar-21 08:54 AM

this is why i don't talk about code

IBZ 19-Mar-21 08:54 AM

It can be changed to make Kirby's work, but that's not the root of the problem

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:54 AM

And that reason is unknown

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:54 AM

I'm not a dev, my job isn't to reverse engineer the move and find out the exact lines of code that cause this to happen

We just know it's a bug and how it should behave

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:55 AM

Yeah

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:55 AM

we don't need to seek out the dev who specifically make the code for this move and give rhem an interview

What we have is enough

Probably more than enough

Considering we have footage from the demo as well

as footage from smash 4

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:57 AM

So to be clear, the problem isnt that stone doesnt break shield The problem is that there is a bug where both hurtboxes dont interact with hitboxes correctly and it can be seen most prominently through its interactions with shield (edited)

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:58 AM

The problem is that the grounded hit is missing after hitting stone from the air

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:59 AM

Ok

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:59 AM

Your explanation is also correct but it has a lot of fluff

Spica 19-Mar-21 08:59 AM

Gimme a bit to think about it

ill change the writeup later

Ken109 19-Mar-21 08:59 AM

The same can be said for your opening

I was trying to say earlier that you use a lot of fluff to get your point across

Which is good for school but like

We're probably dealing with people that have very short attention spans

Spica 19-Mar-21 09:00 AM

Yeh ill try making it more colloquial

Ken109 19-Mar-21 09:00 AM

And also

We're trying to get the help of japanese players

I imagine translating that would be a pain

Spica 19-Mar-21 09:01 AM

Yeh, ill keep that in mind

Thanks for the feedback guys

I appreciate it

Ken109 19-Mar-21 09:02 AM

Epic 19-Mar-21 09:02 AM

good luck, you can do it ~~i realized everything i said was misinfo so i just stopped talking~~

Spica 19-Mar-21 09:04 AM

Time to go back to grinding smash

Ken109 19-Mar-21 09:05 AM

Yeah an if you don't wanna do it anymore you can also let us know

Dont wanna give you pressure or anything

Not like this is a job

Spica 19-Mar-21 09:05 AM

Nah its not like im dedicating a ton of time to this

ill write stuff down if i think of it

And i think up things in the shower

Ken109 30-Mar-21 05:26 PM

NickGigabyte 30-Mar-21 05:34 PM

Its been a hot minute since we've worked on this huh

Ken109 30-Mar-21 06:26 PM

yeah

@Spica it's been a few weeks

i think you should pass

Spica 30-Mar-21 06:27 PM

Yeh, I completely forgot about writing this

My b

Ken109 30-Mar-21 06:28 PM

I have free time to do it so I can just go ahead one of these days

what do you think

Spica 30-Mar-21 06:28 PM

Yeh sure

You’d probably be able to word it better anyway

Ken109 30-Mar-21 06:29 PM

okay

Epic 30-Mar-21 06:46 PM

ive got spring break after thursday

so i can do stuf

Epic 04-Apr-21 01:45 PM

hey hey

when do you guys wanna get started on this again

IBZ 04-Apr-21 01:49 PM

I'm free whenever on spring break for the next 2 weeks

Ken109 04-Apr-21 01:49 PM

yea

I can come up with a draft

I'll get it done today pretty quick cause I'm just too fast

Ken109 04-Apr-21 02:18 PM

Stone is a simple move. Kirby transforms into a rock, drops to the ground and then transforms back. Stone is a move that has both an Aerial Hitbox & a Landing Hitbox. In this game, the move has a bug. If the aerial hit connects with a shield, the landing hit is completely ignored. I've said that this is a bug because the way this move worked was consistent since brawl. Usually, the aerial hit is supposed to lead into the landing hit if it hits shield or some other object. Meanwhile in this game, it doesn't even work on items. This move has worked the same way in Brawl Smash 4 and even the demo for Ultimate. In Ultimate, Stone became this way since launch with no fixes. This video is to spread awareness of the bug in hopes of getting it fixed so that the move can function properly. Please like and subscribe for more among us strategy guide videos, and don't forget to absolutely SMASH that bell icon for notifications.

--------------

this is short, to the point and i probably missed something

let me know what you think when you have time

Spica 04-Apr-21 02:19 PM

Hmmm, lemme try an edit

Ken109 04-Apr-21 02:20 PM

counter arguments are not in there yet

that can come after

IBZ 04-Apr-21 02:21 PM

- comparisons to other similar moves - clarification that the landing hitbox still exists after hitting shield, using items or a nearby opponent as an example those are the only things I can think of that are missing (edited)

Ken109 04-Apr-21 02:21 PM

good

Spica 04-Apr-21 02:22 PM

Kirby’s down special, Stone, is a simple move. He transforms into a rock, and drops to the ground. Stone has 2 hitboxes, an Aerial Hitbox & a Landing Hitbox. In this game, the move has a bug. If the aerial hit connects with a shield, the landing hit is completely ignored. This is worded poorly but idk how to fix it I've said that this is a bug because the way this move worked was consistent since brawl. Usually, the aerial hit is supposed to lead into the landing hit if it hits an object, including shields and items. Meanwhile in this game, it doesn't even work on items. This move has worked the same way in Brawl Smash 4 and even the demo for Ultimate. This video is to spread awareness of the bug in hopes of getting it fixed so that the move can function properly. Please like and subscribe for more among us strategy guide videos, and don't forget to absolutely SMASH that bell icon for notifications.

Probably shouldnt use first person pronouns like I’ve

So maybe like

Actually idk

Im genuinely stumped on that part

Actually, u know what

Just remove that part

IBZ 04-Apr-21 02:25 PM

what part

Spica 04-Apr-21 02:25 PM

Kirby’s down special, Stone, is a simple move. He transforms into a rock, and drops to the ground. Stone has 2 hitboxes, an Aerial Hitbox & a Landing Hitbox. In this game, the move has a bug. If the aerial hit connects with an object(for example, an item or a shielding opponent), the landing hit is completely ignored. Usually, the aerial hit is supposed to lead into the landing hit if it hits a grounded object, similar to other moves in the game like yoshi and bowser’s down b, and steve’s down air. This move has worked the same way in Brawl Smash 4 and even the demo for Ultimate. Meanwhile in this game, it doesn't even work on items. This video is to spread awareness of the bug in hopes of getting it fixed so that the move can function properly. Please like and subscribe for more among us strategy guide videos, and don't forget to absolutely SMASH that bell icon for notifications. (edited)

Its a switch to an unrelated topic that’s brought up later anyway

Ok i think im done

Ken109 04-Apr-21 02:31 PM

Stone is a simple move. Kirby transforms into a rock, drops to the ground and then transforms back. Stone is a move that has both an Aerial Hitbox & a Landing Hitbox. In this game, the move has a bug. If the aerial hit connects with a shield, the landing hit is completely ignored. I've said that this is a bug because the way this move worked was consistent since brawl. Usually, the aerial hit is supposed to lead into the landing hit if it hits shield or some other object. Meanwhile in this game the landing hit doesn't even register on items. *cue blast box stuff Let me clarify, the landing hit does work, but only when you purposely miss the aerial hit. You just can't get both hits one after the other. This move has worked the same way in Brawl Smash 4 and even the demo for Ultimate. In Ultimate, Stone became this way since launch with no fixes. Other characters such as Yoshi, Bowser, Dedede and the newly added Steve, all have moves that share similar properties with Stone except that they work properly. -Insert counter arguments here- This video is to spread awareness of the bug in hopes of getting it fixed so that the move can function properly. Please like and subscribe for more among us strategy guide videos, and don't forget to absolutely SMASH that bell icon for notifications.

IBZ 04-Apr-21 02:31 PM

looks good to me

Ken109 04-Apr-21 02:32 PM

sorry dude it's just a rough draft i'm not asking for ways to articulate what i said

what else am i missing

I'll come back to this later when more people looked at it

should I just @ here?

been a while since we did anything

yeah screw it

@here if you see this and think i missed something, let me know

be back later

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 04-Apr-21 02:41 PM

yeah looks good

if needed I can even promote the video lol

if yall are gonna make a video on it

1

Spica 04-Apr-21 03:27 PM

Mention like the values or something

Like how its coded the same as bowser’s but it functions differently

IBZ 04-Apr-21 03:48 PM

I wouldn't do that We don't know what Nintendo's views on viewing the game's files/data are In game testing like SK did along with comparisons to similar moves is enough to prove anything needed for this video, without risking the points being invalidated due to using something (the data viewer) that Nintendo might not like Yes it's a 'maybe' but I wouldn't risk it (edited)

Ken109 04-Apr-21 03:48 PM

numbers don't change change my point much

if anything that can be info we have in case someone asks about it

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 05-Apr-21 02:55 AM

I think the main points we should bring up is how it was working in literally every other smash game, EXCEPT for ultimate

Not to mention how it was a clearly intentional mechanic after it was shown in the ssbu trailer

E3

That's what should be sent to nintendo, along with proof

And then afterwards, yall can make a video about it, ill gladly help promote it through my connections/insta account

SK 05-Apr-21 08:15 AM

Specifically Brawl & Smash 4, Stone didn't have a grounded/landing hitbox in 64/Melee

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 05-Apr-21 10:21 AM

yea

but tbh

i dont even know how they managed to screw up on stone like this

i just cant see how they removed something so crucial

unless if it DOES it but maybe it's some weird game mechanic that's not letting both aerial and ground hitbox hit?

Mai]{u💫 05-Apr-21 11:08 AM

Probably intentional. That’s what I think. They know, just don’t care.

Sakurai knows about the hate that top tier characters get. My theory is that he doesn’t want to see that type of hate on Kirby so Kirby ends up being placed in obscurity. Ergo doesn’t receive any of the top tier hate.

SK

this absolutely confirms that this is a bug, regardless of any speculation that was made there is absolutely NO way that a move with a value that tells it to hit every hurtbox should fail to hit any hurtbox unless if there's a specific check for that (which grounded/landing stone has that for ONLY grounded opponents) (edited)

IBZ 05-Apr-21 11:12 AM

Well if it was intentional they certainly went about nerfing it in a very odd way

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 05-Apr-21 12:02 PM

some people are saying "it was patched out" and "the reason why there's still some leftover code is because of sloppy design, just like how glide is in the game, yet not on any character"

IBZ 05-Apr-21 12:05 PM

I mean If any of them bothered to look in the code, they'd see that there's nothing apparent that shows it's been patched out. Only things that suggest that it's a bug

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 05-Apr-21 12:07 PM

exactly, they said that the devs found a sloppy way to change the code

that's it lol

Ken109 05-Apr-21 01:37 PM

Someone clearly tripped over a keyboard and this was the result (edited)

@ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ the bits about it working in other games is already there

Is there anything else you guys think I'm missing

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 05-Apr-21 01:43 PM

nah

looks good

Ken109 05-Apr-21 01:43 PM

Also maybe discuss what happens after I'm done

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 05-Apr-21 01:43 PM

well first wont this be sent to nintendo?

Ken109 05-Apr-21 01:43 PM

What comes after

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 05-Apr-21 01:44 PM

and after we can make a video about it, like why/how we found it

Ken109 05-Apr-21 01:45 PM

We don't know how to send it to nintendo anymore cause apparently smash kids made nintendo support close up shop

Idk if there has been an update on that situation

Besides, we already planned to send it to them after the video was done

IBZ 05-Apr-21 01:46 PM

all you can do now is put it on twitter and yt and hope it blows up

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 05-Apr-21 01:46 PM

yeah

Ken109

We don't know how to send it to nintendo anymore cause apparently smash kids made nintendo support close up shop

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 05-Apr-21 01:46 PM

wtf

Ken109 05-Apr-21 01:47 PM

(edited)

Yeah so

If I'm done then what is the next step

Make vid?

IBZ 05-Apr-21 01:49 PM

ye

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 05-Apr-21 01:50 PM

yeah

Ken109

Stone is a simple move. Kirby transforms into a rock, drops to the ground and then transforms back. Stone is a move that has both an Aerial Hitbox & a Landing Hitbox. In this game, the move has a bug. If the aerial hit connects with a shield, the landing hit is completely ignored. I've said that this is a bug because the way this move worked was consistent since brawl. Usually, the aerial hit is supposed to lead into the landing hit if it hits shield or some other object. Meanwhile in this game the landing hit doesn't even register on items. *cue blast box stuff Let me clarify, the landing hit does work, but only when you purposely miss the aerial hit. You just can't get both hits one after the other. This move has worked the same way in Brawl Smash 4 and even the demo for Ultimate. In Ultimate, Stone became this way since launch with no fixes. Other characters such as Yoshi, Bowser, Dedede and the newly added Steve, all have moves that share similar properties with Stone except that they work properly. -Insert counter arguments here- This video is to spread awareness of the bug in hopes of getting it fixed so that the move can function properly. Please like and subscribe for more among us strategy guide videos, and don't forget to absolutely SMASH that bell icon for notifications.

IBZ 05-Apr-21 01:50 PM

just need to edit this into a script, have someone read it, and put relevant clips in the background which is probably much easier said than done (edited)

Ken109 05-Apr-21 01:51 PM

I guess I'm doing that too, right?

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 05-Apr-21 01:54 PM

for the making of the video?

we can probably invite someone like juggleboy

IBZ 05-Apr-21 01:54 PM

unless someone else wants to? I thought epic or SK was doing the voice over and I swear someone here said they were doing the video editing (I'm useless at both) as for editing that to make it a script that was supposed to be a joint effort, and I'd assume it still is

Ken109 05-Apr-21 01:54 PM

Aw shit

Why did I forget about juggleboy

IBZ 05-Apr-21 01:54 PM

o damn ye

Ken109 05-Apr-21 01:55 PM

Phan7om also never responded

IBZ 05-Apr-21 01:55 PM

juggleboy literally did something like this with the monado glitch and got it fixed

Ken109 05-Apr-21 01:56 PM

Excellent

Who wants to invite him

IBZ 05-Apr-21 01:57 PM

I can ig wait actually I can't there's no invite link

Ken109 05-Apr-21 01:57 PM

How do I make an invite link again

https://discord.gg/ZYZfJbzu

I have figured it out

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 05-Apr-21 02:03 PM

want me to invite him?

also

saved

Ken109 05-Apr-21 02:03 PM

Sure

I don't usually mess with discord like that

IBZ 05-Apr-21 02:08 PM

oh he already joined

Ken109 05-Apr-21 02:11 PM

Oh right I forgot something

So after we're done with the script do we invite someone who speaks japanese so the vid can be 2 languages? That was part of the plan initially

Dunno how hard it would be, with the language barrier and all

IBZ 05-Apr-21 02:13 PM

idk about japanese but

there are a lot of french kirbys

Ken109 05-Apr-21 02:14 PM

Frech too?

IBZ 05-Apr-21 02:14 PM

and france is like the biggest region in europe for ult

andrew4043 05-Apr-21 02:16 PM

DeepL the script and shove it under the captions, whether on-screen or just as a separate caption stream

Ken109 05-Apr-21 02:16 PM

ok i remember it was mukyu that said he was willing to help

Was a while back though

Do you think I should invite him now or later

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 05-Apr-21 02:17 PM

well

better to let him know now

Ken109 05-Apr-21 02:17 PM

It's probably late af in japan

andrew4043 05-Apr-21 02:18 PM

4m

am

Ken109 05-Apr-21 02:18 PM

Perfect time

Prolly later tonight then

Brb

Mai]{u💫 05-Apr-21 03:06 PM

Ken, why don’t you stream anymore?

Ken109 05-Apr-21 03:18 PM

I stream wym

Last time I streamed was checks calander Yesterday :Kapp: (edited)

Ken109 05-Apr-21 03:35 PM

I just haven't streamed switch games often

Epic 05-Apr-21 04:25 PM

last one i popped in on was nexomon

Ken109 05-Apr-21 04:26 PM

Expect more

SK 10-Apr-21 05:35 PM

-Insert counter arguments here-

i feel like we should lay out what those counter arguments would even be, especially if we mention the other characters with similar moves beforehand

rest seems pretty good tho

Ken109 10-Apr-21 06:06 PM

damn what are our counter arguments

o some of em are in the doc

NickGigabyte 10-Apr-21 06:23 PM

Don't we already have some Counterarguments?

Ken109 10-Apr-21 06:23 PM

ye

NickGigabyte 10-Apr-21 06:25 PM

So couldn't we use just those or should we improve them

SK 10-Apr-21 06:31 PM

those don't really seem like arguments, assuming you're referring to these

What is stone What does stone do When is stone used

this is just a setup to explain the utilities of stone

or maybe i'm just viewing arguments as a term incorrectly, i'm mainly seeing it as "well why should they fix this rather than address the important nerf to ganon's side b" (edited)

andrew4043 10-Apr-21 06:32 PM

"kirby has been buffed enough times, why make stone hit twice on shield" (edited)

Ken109 10-Apr-21 06:35 PM

what a dumbass thing to say

o wait thats toxic

andrew4043 10-Apr-21 06:36 PM

that's all i could think of lol

"kirby's you can stay in it for however you want and tank some moves in it, unlike others" maybe this one will be asked, who knows, better to include counterarguments than not

Ken109 10-Apr-21 06:45 PM

NickGigabyte 10-Apr-21 06:48 PM

He's referring to the reception to the video in a hypothetical scenario I think

SK 10-Apr-21 06:48 PM

he is

the public will make dumb claims

Ken109 10-Apr-21 06:49 PM

doesn't mean put all the dumb shit in there

dunno how to respond to idiotic arguments

at least at the moment

i'm in too toxic of a mood rn

NickGigabyte 10-Apr-21 06:50 PM

Also yeah we need to think of counter arguments I propose - Stone's game history - The sudden change in Ultimate - How Stone is supposed to function vs what it does in game - The Tweet with the reason as to why it doesn't work - SK's findings about Stone - Other things

Ken109 10-Apr-21 06:50 PM

yeea

NickGigabyte 10-Apr-21 06:51 PM

Okay, maybe those aren't Counterarguments But like an overall structure of the video

Ken109 10-Apr-21 06:51 PM

oh

NickGigabyte 10-Apr-21 06:51 PM

But still Counter arguments will benefit greatly Like "why does it work in every other game and even in the demo for Ult" etc

My mind's a blur I apologize lol

NickGigabyte

He's referring to the reception to the video in a hypothetical scenario I think

andrew4043 10-Apr-21 06:54 PM

yee

yall can choose to make responses or not, but they're out there

NickGigabyte

But still Counter arguments will benefit greatly Like "why does it work in every other game and even in the demo for Ult" etc

ﹾJawbreakerXﹾ 10-Apr-21 07:06 PM

they tend to say "They didn't like how it used to be, so they decided to change it now, same with the demo"

SK

i'd sum it up like this Stone is a move that has both an Aerial Hitbox & a Landing Hitbox In normal circumstances..., If the Aerial hitbox connects vs a player, the Landing hitbox should miss due to the victim being put airborne by the initial hit. If the Aerial hitbox connects vs an armored player, the Landing hitbox should connect due to the victim being in a grounded state. If the Aerial hitbox connects vs an item (i.e. Blast Box), the Landing hitbox should connect as the move is coded to hit all types of hurtboxes. If the Aerial hitbox connects vs a shield, the Landing hitbox should connect on the shield as it has no unique shield damage values (so it deals normal shield damage) and the defender is still in a state that doesn't nullify the landing hitbox. In actuality... If the Aerial hitbox connects vs a player, the Landing hitbox will usually miss due to the victim being airborne by the aerial hit, BUT the Landing hitbox can connect if it connects the absolute next frame while the victim is stuck in hitlag. If the Aerial hitbox connects vs an armored player, the Landing hitbox is ignored to that player specifically. (It will still hit other nearby players.) If the aerial hitbox connects vs an item (i.e. Blast Box), the Landing hitbox is ignored vs that item. (It will still hit nearby players.) If the aerial hitbox connects vs shield, the Landing hitbox is ignored. (It will still hit nearby players.)

Katerina 03-Jun-21 02:33 PM

Ez copy paste

Ken109 12-Jun-21 09:54 PM

"How do we know it's not intentional?" -Explain how the aerial hit works -Explain how the grounded hit works -Explain how the stone bug works -Explain how both hits are supposed to hit back to back on shield -Show exmaples of EVERYONE with a similar move while explaining that they all work this way -Explain how Kirby is the ONLY character that has this "function" -Show examples of Stone working in every previous game since brawl -Show a seperate example of bowser getting the aerial hit of down b but not the landing hit while explaining that this is how much shield damage it would deal for bowser if this "feature" was intentional (edited)

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Ken109 12-Jun-21 10:09 PM

Pinned a message.